Chapter 23
I'm not sure about this chapter. Culver knows well enough the background of the early church fathers. But he doesn't at all engage with the last two centuries of thinking on the question of God and suffering. (Perhaps he will cover more of this in his section on Christology?)
Why do we assume that the early fathers were correct on some things (e.g. impassibility), yet we wouldn't sign up to their ecclesiology or soteriology? Maybe they were wrong on this too...
Surely God can choose to suffer? Surely he felt the pain of Christ?
The last three paragraphs of the chapter are interesting - I think they reveal much about Cuvler's assumptions. I'm wary of the whole question of analogy. If the Son became human (a man), that strikes me as going beyond analogy.
Surely God can choose to suffer? Surely he felt the pain of Christ?
The last three paragraphs of the chapter are interesting - I think they reveal much about Cuvler's assumptions. I'm wary of the whole question of analogy. If the Son became human (a man), that strikes me as going beyond analogy.
I thought about this in church this morning, in relation to all the gender neutral language used these days to refer to God. The big problem is that Jesus, the man, is Lord and Saviour. Not easy to get round that - but, even for us conservative guys, we need to reckon more with what that means about the nature of God.
Trust you are all well, Shed
Trust you are all well, Shed
posted by David Shedden | 12:30 AM
13 Comments:
Hello Mary! Thank you so much for the comments and notes on my blog!!I can only imagine you have had many similar experiences! How are you doing? I am sure you have your hands full!
I hope all is well, Ivy
Sara, I'm sad to hear that there are those who still are led astray from the path of truth by the errors of Servetus.
I regret to say that he was a heretic, one who chose (hairesis) to go his own way into soul-destroying error, rather than receive the clear teachings of Scripture, e.g. the Trinity, despite the efforts of men like Calvin to convince him otherwise.
As Calvin warned Servetus, so I warn you in love: if you persist in his errors, the punishment you will receive beyond this world will be far worse than the punishment that he received in this world.
Being a heretic, Servetus was no brother, but preached another gospel, which is no gospel, and denied the true being of Christ, amongst other fundamental truths. He who preaches another gospel is anathema, or accursed (Gal. 1:6-9). Do not be led astray from the path of truth!
Servetus was one who departed from "the faith once delivered to the saints", "who long ago [was] marked out for condemnation" (predestined it would seem) and "went in the way of Cain" (Jude 3,4,11). For just like the "Father of Lies", who was a "murderer from the beginning" (John 8:44), so Servetus is a murderer of souls.
If the equity of the Old Testament civil law still holds, then Calvin was right to agree with Servetus' condemnation to death as a murderer of souls. To execute a murderer is no murder, but is obedience to God's command: "But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die." (Deut. 18:20)
You would do well to note the condemnation that is given to such as "pervert the gospel of Christ" (Gal. 1:7) in the Book of Jude: "for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever" (v. 13) and the Lord is coming to "execute judgement" on these ungodly men (v. 15).
I plead with you that you would come out of the fire before it is too late (v. 23)!
The path of truth is this: that there is one, eternal God who subsists in three distinct persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Son became man as well as God, and continues so forever. He was and is fully human as well as divine. Christ died in the place of his people and received their punishment.
It is only through faith in this God-man Christ - in who He is and what He has done - and by repentance from sin and error onto God and His truth that a man or a woman can be saved from their sin and delivered from the judgement to come.
May God pierce your heart with these feeble efforts on behalf of your never-dying soul and grant you grace to see the errors of your way before it is too late. May you know the truth as it is in the true Christ!
P.S. You may find this useful: The Doctrine of
the Trinity Defended
I would add that if you accuse Calvin of murder, then you must also condemn Servetus, who said that certain errors were worthy of death and that Calvin should be executed if it was found that he had accused Servetus of such an error.
From his prison, on 22nd September, he sent to the Council a list of "articles on which M. Servetus wishes J. Calvin to be interrogated." He there accuses Calvin of having falsely imputed to him the opinion that the soul is mortal. "If I have said that—not merely said it, but publicly written it—to infect the world, I would condemn myself to death. Wherefore, my lords, I demand that my false accuser be punished, poena talionis, and that he be detained a prisoner like me, till the cause be decided for his death or mine, or other punishment."
This quote is from the English translation of "Relation du Proces Criminel Intente a Geneve en 1553, contre Michael Servet, redigee d'apres les documents originaux par Albert Rilliet" ("Relation of the Criminal Process Brought against Michael Servetus at Geneva in 1553, Written from the Original Documents by Albert Rilliet").
For more information on the history of Servetus, see the following:
SERVETUS COMES TO GENEVA AND IS ARRESTED
CALVIN'S VICTORY OVER THE LIBERTINES WHO SUPPORTED SERVETUS
APPREHENSION AND TRIAL OF SERVETUS
CONDEMNATION AND DEATH OF SERVETUS
Mr Cohen's comment is included in the following comment in full and the original has been deleted for convenience.
Hi Timothy, Paul here. I wrote the paper you condemn.
We were not led astray by Servetus. We had already known for many years, since Christ was revealed to us, that the trinity is a false representation of God. Even before Christ was fully revealed to us, as those called by Him, we did not defend the trinity as sacred and holy. Truly that is another god men serve.
Knowing the one true God, we never believed in several.
[TJD] Neither does historical and Biblical Christianity believe in several gods. That is tri-theism.
The trinity consists of pagan idols superimposed on the Biblical gospel of Christ by men who did not know the Lord or have His Spirit. No man of God ever taught such an abominable and confusing thing.
[TJD] What evidence is there that the Trinity “consists of pagan idols superimposed on the Biblical gospel of Christ”? The concept of a Trinity is unknown amongst the pagans. The doctrine of the Trinity has been maintained as essential to the faith in all generations by the godly.
We know this because we know God, and we know there are not three entities, but only One Who speaks to us and reveals Himself in Christ.
[TJD] It depends what you mean by ”entities”. By the normal dictionary meaning, we only believe in one divine entity also, that is one divine being. Orthodox Christianity has maintained that there is one God, but who consists of three persons (for want of a better word).
You can read many things on our site about the true God and Lord Jesus Christ. A few pertinent postings:
The Most Glorious of Truths
Jesus Christ, Almighty God
Diabolical Doctrine 6) "God is three persons."
Who Do Men Say that I Am?
You Worship You Know Not What
These are our own words, with our own understanding that God has given us. It is a common thing, Timothy, that those who do not have their own oil will point us to the writings of others.
[TJD] I could generate my own oil, if it were worth the time. But when other men have already done the work, it would be foolish to waste time “re-inventing the wheel”. It is a common thing not to “re-invent the wheel”.
Unless you can prove the trinity is God, don't bother giving us other people's words as your proof. We hear Christ, as all saints do, and not the opinions of men about Him.
[TJD] I believe the same arguments that these men do. It is the same proof, whoever writes it. But this is a common fallacy asserted by those who want to avoid the truth that we must write our beliefs in our own words.
Your words are the opinions of a man. Your words are a person’s words. Why bother giving me these words of a man? You are being contradictory.
If you don't have your own words, much less the Word of God, to speak, then you should shut up and listen to those who do. Your appeal to the traditions and teachings of men does not cut it with Him.
[TJD] Again, more logical fallacy. You are begging the question. Moreover, “the words of men” (like yours) to which I point are argued from Scripture, not tradition. I don’t say, “The Pope says that,” or “Calvin says this.” That would be appealing to tradition.
You have condemned Servetus but have offered no Scriptural proof against him. Have you actually red his book, The Restoration of Christianity, the one Calvin tried to wipe out? Three copies were missed, and today you have an English translation available to you. In it you will find many Scriptural proofs of the error of the trinity. Servetus repeatedly destroys the notion that it has anything to do with the Biblical teachings of the prophets and apostles of the Lord our God.
[TJD] You’re not pointing me to the words of a man, are you? I would not waste my time reading a work that is so clearly refuted by the teaching of Scripture.
I would remind you that although Servetus blasphemously called the Trinity "a three-headed Cerberus," and “a hell-hound," he was not merely an Arian (which is bad enough), nor a Sabellian/ Monarchian/ Modalist/ Patripassianist like yourself (again a soul-destroying heresy), but he was essentially a Pantheist: he believed that the Godhead is essentially communicated to devils, wood, stones, footstools, etc. “I, on the contrary do not doubt but that this footstool, or anything else which you may point out, is the substance of God.” When he was asked if the devil is then also God, with a peal of laughter he replied, “And can you doubt it?”
It is quite damning of his critics, beginning with Calvin, that all they can say is that Servetus blasphemes, but none can prove it. God certainly hates false accusations and murders based on those, which are fueled by envy and rage. You are infected with the same hate; you threaten us with eternal burning. You are greatly in need of repentance and a different spirit, Timothy.
[TJD] I am neither envious of you, nor angry with you, nor hate you. It is not hate that cries to a man to flee from a burning building; it is love. Hatred would be to ignore your perilous state. I would have merely deleted your comment and ignored it.
We are in fact presently exercising godly judgment with you, bringing fire from Heaven, which Jude, whom you quote, alluded to:
"Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men, saying, 'Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly among them about all their ungodly deeds which they have committed impiously, and about all the harsh words which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him'" (Jude 1:14-15 EMTV).
[TJD] Am I missing something, or are you acting contradictorily, and doing what you accuse me of?
According to the Law by which you justify Calvin's murder of Servetus (and attempted murder of Castellion, which in effect happened), you should be burned at the stake for your blasphemy and false teachings in the Name of God.
[TJD] I was not aware that burning at the stake was in the Law. Such a death was exactly what the framers of the American Constitution, meant by “cruel and unusual punishment”. Calvin opposed this method of punishment and asked for Servetus not to undergo it, but instead to be beheaded.
We are not seeking that for you, however, knowing that you suffer death even as you choose it, and the judgment of God is sure upon those who take His Name in vain. Not one jot or tittle of the Law fails. We also know His judgment is for good, not for inflicting endless, mindless torment, as your mentors teach you.
[TJD] I think you’ll find that my “mentors” merely teach the clear teaching of Scripture: “And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matt. 25:46) “These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power” (2 Thess. 1:9) Etc.
You bring up Servetus' countercharge from prison as proof he was a murderer. That is very lame, Timothy. Servetus never sought to charge Calvin with heresy in a heathen court when he was a free man. Servetus never said that should Calvin show up in his neck of the woods, he would not leave alive if he had anything to do with it, as Calvin did of him. That is the spirit of a murderer.
What Servetus was saying to his captors was, "I am innocent of teaching heresy, and wish to prove it. If death is the punishment merited by teaching heresy and making false accusations, then bring my accuser into the same condition as I am and fairly determine which of us deserves death. If I am guilty, I will accede to the punishment. But if he is guilty, let him who accuses have his own medicine.” I see nothing wrong with that.
[TJD] The worthy answer to that is merely to re-quote Servetus: "If I have said that—not merely said it, but publicly written it—to infect the world, I would condemn myself to death. Wherefore, my lords, I demand that my false accuser be punished, poena talionis, and that he be detained a prisoner like me, till the cause be decided for his death or mine, or other punishment."
He did not merely say, “If death is the punishment merited by teaching heresy...” he said that he would condemn himself [Servetus] to death if he taught heresy, etc. he agreed with the equity of such a punishment. You cannot argue that black is white, or white is black.
If you can’t see what’s wrong with wanting your enemy to have “his own medicine”, then you show the fruit of your own heart. For a Christian would say, “Love your enemy!” If you believe that it is wrong to execute someone for heresy, then you should not wish such an injustice for them.
Using this as fodder to condemn an innocent man is truly loathsome on your part. Let's see how you would fare being stripped of your goods and freedom, left to rot in a stinking hole infested by lice, and tormented with false accusations and lies hurled against you.
[TJD] If condemning a man to death for heresy were sinful, then Servetus was just as culpable as Calvin. He is no less culpable for his physical and legal position. Ad hominem fallacies will not do.
I have no doubt that, by God’s grace, I would fare better than Servetus. The Sprit of God enables a man to be brave in the midst of suffering for the truth, not sink into retaliation: “not returning evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary blessing” (1 Pet. 3:9)
You are nothing but a hypocritical liar.
[TJD] Again, you beg the question: where is my hypocrisy and where are my lies?
One only needs to offend your sacrosanct idol, the trinity, and you would consign him to eternal flames.
If that happens to one who merely disagrees with you, what would you have done to the one who imprisons, tortures, and kills you for your belief in your idol?
[TJD] I consign no one to eternal flames. God is the judge; that is His sentence. If you speak blasphemy against God, then it is He who you offend. It would be unloving of me not to warn you, as Calvin did Servetus.
Flee from the wrath to come!
You do not know what spirit you are of. Being a religious fool has left you bereft of all sense and decency. Those are the fearsome wages paid by the whore, Mystery, Babylon the Great.
[TJD] Again, mere assertion. You would make yourself a teacher of the law, but your argument is sadly lacking in basic logic.
“My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.” (James 3:1)
“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” (Matt. 18:6)
Your judgement as the leader of a cult in leading others astray will be far worse than for those who are misled by you.
It would be interesting to know how your Sabellianism accounts for the baptism of Christ, when the Son was baptised, the Father spoke from Heaven and declared that Jesus was His beloved Son in whom He was well-pleased, and the Holy Spirit rested on Jesus in the form of a dove? It would also be interesting to know how the Son can be His own Father?
If you are not a Modalist, then correct me. Is there a brief statement of what you believe concerning the being of God and of Christ? Here is what I believe, not from tradition, but because it is Scriptural, and why re-invent the wheel?
Of God, and of the Holy Trinity
Timothy, Victor and I respond below to your response within my original letter (which is still in italics). Paul
Hi Timothy, Paul here. I wrote the paper you condemn.
We were not led astray by Servetus. We had already known for many years, since Christ was revealed to us, that the trinity is a false representation of God. Even before Christ was fully revealed to us, as those called by Him, we did not defend the trinity as sacred and holy. Truly that is another god men serve.
Knowing the one true God, we never believed in several.
[TJD] Neither does historical and Biblical Christianity believe in several gods. That is tri-theism.
[Victor] Come up with all clever terms, semantics and definitions you will. You speak of three separate persons, though united (somehow) as one, a monstrosity nobody should have to try to understand because a product of wicked imagination. It even defies all nature, which God has given for our instruction, as well as Scripture.
[Paul] If then, you were to hear God's voice (which you do not, not having His Spirit or knowing Him), which "person" would be speaking to you?
The trinity consists of pagan idols superimposed on the Biblical gospel of Christ by men who did not know the Lord or have His Spirit. No man of God ever taught such an abominable and confusing thing.
[TJD] What evidence is there that the Trinity "consists of pagan idols superimposed on the Biblical gospel of Christ"? The concept of a Trinity is unknown amongst the pagans. The doctrine of the Trinity has been maintained as essential to the faith in all generations by the godly.
[Victor] Unknown amongst the pagans? Read Alexander Hislop's Two Babylons and tell us so.
We know this because we know God, and we know there are not three entities, but only One Who speaks to us and reveals Himself in Christ.
[TJD] It depends what you mean by "entities". By the normal dictionary meaning, we only believe in one divine entity also, that is one divine being. Orthodox Christianity has maintained that there is one God, but who consists of three persons (for want of a better word).
[Paul] The traditions of men, which you call "Orthodox Christianity," are wrong. Nowhere in Scriptures is such a notion of multiple persons or parts to God preached or taught:
"I am the LORD, and there is no other. There is no other God besides Me. I will strengthen you, although you don't know Me, so that from the east to the west people will know that there is no God except Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other. I make light and create darkness. I make blessings and create disasters. I, the LORD, do all these things.... Speak and present your case. Yes, let them consult one another. Who revealed this in the distant past and predicted it long ago? Wasn't it I, the LORD? There is no other God except Me. There is no other righteous God and Savior besides Me" (Isaiah 45:5-7,21 GW).
[Victor] Now if you wish to say that God has manifest Himself as three different entities, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as one can be a father, a husband and a carpenter all at once, fine. Then we can agree because that constitutes but one person.
But we do not look for agreement with you or any other devil. That is not the point. The point is to tell you not that you follow a man but that you believe lies, thus consequentially agreeing with those that are manifest devils and murderers, such as the Pharisees and Calvin, who vehemently opposed, and do oppose the Lord Jesus Christ. Perhaps you too have murdered. We don't know. We point to a murderer to let you know that you are a murderer because you align yourself with one, not knowing better.
You can read many things on our site about the true God and Lord Jesus Christ. A few pertinent postings:
The Most Glorious of Truths
Jesus Christ, Almighty God
Diabolical Doctrine 6) "God is three persons."
Who Do Men Say that I Am?
You Worship You Know Not What
These are our own words, with our own understanding that God has given us. It is a common thing, Timothy, that those who do not have their own oil will point us to the writings of others.
[TJD] I could generate my own oil, if it were worth the time. But when other men have already done the work, it would be foolish to waste time "re-inventing the wheel". It is a common thing not to "re-invent the wheel".
[Victor] You know nothing of True Oil, not having the Spirit of Christ.
[Paul] The problem is that what you refer to as wheels are flat, misshapen, and useless, and you don't know the difference.
Unless you can prove the trinity is God, don't bother giving us other people's words as your proof. We hear Christ, as all saints do, and not the opinions of men about Him.
[TJD] I believe the same arguments that these men do. It is the same proof, whoever writes it. But this is a common fallacy asserted by those who want to avoid the truth that we must write our beliefs in our own words.
Your words are the opinions of a man. Your words are a person's words. Why bother giving me these words of a man? You are being contradictory.
[Victor] There are those who speak true words and the Word of God faithfully, being the sons of God. You speak the words of liars and borrow their words to suit your pride:
"Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, says the LORD, that steal My words every one from his neighbor" (Jeremiah 23:30 JPS).
[Paul] You wear your foolishness like a badge of honor. By your yardstick you should not listen to or believe the Bible, because that is also the words of men. Men, after all, recorded the Scriptures. And, in truth of fact, you do not listen to or believe the Bible. You are just like those Jews to whom the Lord spoke, saying they thought to find life in the Scriptures, but did not, because they would not come to Him. Neither do you come to Him.
If you don't have your own words, much less the Word of God, to speak, then you should shut up and listen to those who do. Your appeal to the traditions and teachings of men does not cut it with Him.
[TJD] Again, more logical fallacy. You are begging the question. Moreover, "the words of men" (like yours) to which I point are argued from Scripture, not tradition. I don't say, "The Pope says that," or "Calvin says this." That would be appealing to tradition.
[Paul] What does it matter if they speak from Scripture, if they cannot rightly divide it? Your fathers, the Pharisees, quoted the Scriptures too, as did Calvin, another murderer.
[Victor] We speak the Truth of God in Christ. You speak man's reasoning, your carnal mind at enmity with God:
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be. So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8 MKJV).
You have condemned Servetus but have offered no Scriptural proof against him. Have you actually red his book, The Restoration of Christianity, the one Calvin tried to wipe out? Three copies were missed, and today you have an English translation available to you. In it you will find many Scriptural proofs of the error of the trinity. Servetus repeatedly destroys the notion that it has anything to do with the Biblical teachings of the prophets and apostles of the Lord our God.
[TJD] You're not pointing me to the words of a man, are you? I would not waste my time reading a work that is so clearly refuted by the teaching of Scripture.
[Victor] What you call Scripture is your interpretation, and not the intended meaning. There is no way you can know without love of Truth, Jesus Christ.
[Paul] As I told you up front, we did not need to hear Servetus to be convinced of the falsehood of the trinity doctrine. I just supplied you with several of our own writings that show this to be a diabolical doctrine, condemned in no uncertain terms by Scripture. Have you bothered to read or answer any of those? No. You have not because you cannot. So you condemn what you have not red or understood.
I am saying the same thing about Servetus. You condemn him as a heretic, but, just like Calvin, you cannot show he is wrong. You just say he is, and that Scripture says so, based on the interpretations of tares. You need to specifically show where he is wrong, using his words, in context, and appropriate Scriptures. Otherwise, you condemn yourself as a false accuser, which you do here.
[TJD] I would remind you that although Servetus blasphemously called the Trinity "a three-headed Cerberus," and "a hell-hound," he was not merely an Arian (which is bad enough), nor a Sabellian/ Monarchian/ Modalist/ Patripassianist like yourself (again a soul-destroying heresy), but he was essentially a Pantheist: he believed that the Godhead is essentially communicated to devils, wood, stones, footstools, etc. "I, on the contrary do not doubt but that this footstool, or anything else which you may point out, is the substance of God." When he was asked if the devil is then also God, with a peal of laughter he replied, "And can you doubt it?"
[Victor] While a footstool is not God, does Scripture not declare plainly enough that all things came forth from Him, that without Him nothing was made that was made, and that by Him all things consist? Does that make Servetus a "pantheist"? If God created all things, then these things are all very substance of Him in the original, are they not? Thus far, we have no evidence he did believe such. Your quote certainly proves nothing.
We are talking to a stubborn, prejudiced, blithering fool here, are we not? However, if perchance Servetus did believe in pantheism, we do not agree with him on that point.
[Paul] Servetus had no problem with identifying devils and falsehood, as he did in the teachings of Augustine and Calvin, proving them to not be of God. So he obviously did not teach that all things were God, only that God is the source of all things that exist through Jesus Christ, His express image and manifest glory.
[TJD] When he was asked if the devil is then also God, with a peal of laughter he replied, "And can you doubt it?"
[Victor] That could have been tongue-in-cheek, could it not? Here are his detractors acting as God or in His place of authority, but devils incarnate. This is readily understood. He was too intelligent for his self-righteous, religious enemies, and his words too mystical for them to understand with minds dulled in carnality.
[Paul] Does not the devil do the bidding of God, as he did with Job? God asked Satan about Job, and then told him what to do, contrary to those who say the devil made God do it. God made him do it. And Who did Job credit or blame for what happened? God. God did not correct him on that, did He? He didn't say, "Job, it wasn't Me, I promise, the devil made Me do it to you!"
But these things are too high for the carnal man, which is what you are, Timothy. You know Christ after the corrupt flesh, making Him in your image, the man of sin.
It is quite damning of his critics, beginning with Calvin, that all they can say is that Servetus blasphemes, but none can prove it. God certainly hates false accusations and murders based on those, which are fueled by envy and rage. You are infected with the same hate; you threaten us with eternal burning. You are greatly in need of repentance and a different spirit, Timothy.
[TJD] I am neither envious of you, nor angry with you, nor hate you. It is not hate that cries to a man to flee from a burning building; it is love. Hatred would be to ignore your perilous state. I would have merely deleted your comment and ignored it.
[Victor] You have never loved. You insult the meaning of the word as God is love.
[Paul] Your protest is no different than those who murdered Christ: "Did not Moses give you the Law? And yet not one of you keeps the Law! Why do you seek to kill Me? The crowd answered and said, You have a demon! Who seeks to kill you?" (John 7:19-20 MKJV).
We are in fact presently exercising godly judgment with you, bringing fire from Heaven, which Jude, whom you quote, alluded to:
"Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men, saying, 'Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly among them about all their ungodly deeds which they have committed impiously, and about all the harsh words which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him'" (Jude 1:14-15 EMTV).
[TJD] Am I missing something, or are you acting contradictorily, and doing what you accuse me of?
[Victor] Yes, you are missing something; quite a lot, actually.
[Paul] "Is not My word like fire? Says the Lord; and like a hammer, smashing the rock to bits?" (Jeremiah 23:29 BBE)
According to the Law by which you justify Calvin's murder of Servetus (and attempted murder of Castellion, which in effect happened), you should be burned at the stake for your blasphemy and false teachings in the Name of God.
[TJD] I was not aware that burning at the stake was in the Law. Such a death was exactly what the framers of the American Constitution, meant by "cruel and unusual punishment". Calvin opposed this method of punishment and asked for Servetus not to undergo it, but instead to be beheaded.
[Victor] Confess a murderer, defend him as one, and thus yourself.
[Paul] Yes, and since it was not stated in the Law, why did Calvin approve at all, and justify the act the rest of his life: "Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard"?
We are not seeking that for you, however, knowing that you suffer death even as you choose it, and the judgment of God is sure upon those who take His Name in vain. Not one jot or tittle of the Law fails. We also know His judgment is for good, not for inflicting endless, mindless torment, as your mentors teach you.
[TJD] I think you'll find that my "mentors" merely teach the clear teaching of Scripture: "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:46) "These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (2 Thess. 1:9) Etc.
[Victor] It does not say that Christ ordained His disciples to impose this upon anyone physically, literally. Your assertion is just one of the many ways you show your true colors.
[Paul] For what is made clear in Scripture, read our section, The Restitution of All Things.
You bring up Servetus' countercharge from prison as proof he was a murderer. That is very lame, Timothy. Servetus never sought to charge Calvin with heresy in a heathen court when he was a free man. Servetus never said that should Calvin show up in his neck of the woods, he would not leave alive if he had anything to do with it, as Calvin did of him. That is the spirit of a murderer.
What Servetus was saying to his captors was, "I am innocent of teaching heresy, and wish to prove it. If death is the punishment merited by teaching heresy and making false accusations, then bring my accuser into the same condition as I am and fairly determine which of us deserves death. If I am guilty, I will accede to the punishment. But if he is guilty, let him who accuses have his own medicine." I see nothing wrong with that.
[TJD] The worthy answer to that is merely to re-quote Servetus: "If I have said that—not merely said it, but publicly written it—to infect the world, I would condemn myself to death. Wherefore, my lords, I demand that my false accuser be punished, poena talionis, and that he be detained a prisoner like me, till the cause be decided for his death or mine, or other punishment."
He did not merely say, "If death is the punishment merited by teaching heresy..." he said that he would condemn himself [Servetus] to death if he taught heresy, etc. he agreed with the equity of such a punishment. You cannot argue that black is white, or white is black.
If you can't see what's wrong with wanting your enemy to have "his own medicine", then you show the fruit of your own heart. For a Christian would say, "Love your enemy!" If you believe that it is wrong to execute someone for heresy, then you should not wish such an injustice for them.
[Victor] The record does not bear that Servetus wished any such thing, but only evil interpretation declares it so. You wrest the Scriptures to your destruction and you wrest all good and true words because you have no understanding. And why do you defend murder as though you are not a murderer when, plainly, you are?
[Paul] There is nothing wrong with a man preferring death to leading others astray. There is everything wrong with killing a man in the Name of Christ, one whom you cannot prove is wrong, or even one that you can.
Using this as fodder to condemn an innocent man is truly loathsome on your part. Let's see how you would fare being stripped of your goods and freedom, left to rot in a stinking hole infested by lice, and tormented with false accusations and lies hurled against you.
[TJD] If condemning a man to death for heresy were sinful, then Servetus was just as culpable as Calvin. He is no less culpable for his physical and legal position. Ad hominem fallacies will not do.
[Paul] Whether or not Servetus was, Calvin is still a murderer and a liar, as Castellion proved. It is interesting that none of you Calvin apologists like to mention Castellion, who, without any appeal to the falsity of the trinity or other doctrines, proved straight out what a conniving liar and murderer Calvin was.
[TJD] I have no doubt that, by God's grace, I would fare better than Servetus. The Sprit of God enables a man to be brave in the midst of suffering for the truth, not sink into retaliation: "not returning evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary blessing" (1 Pet. 3:9)
[Victor] We will see.
You are nothing but a hypocritical liar.
[TJD] Again, you beg the question: where is my hypocrisy and where are my lies?
[Paul] They are there every time you open your mouth to defend murder, lies, and false doctrines.
One only needs to offend your sacrosanct idol, the trinity, and you would consign him to eternal flames.
If that happens to one who merely disagrees with you, what would you have done to the one who imprisons, tortures, and kills you for your belief in your idol?
[TJD] I consign no one to eternal flames. God is the judge; that is His sentence. If you speak blasphemy against God, then it is He who you offend. It would be unloving of me not to warn you, as Calvin did Servetus.
[Victor] You consign in that you defend and agree with those who consign.
"Truly you bear witness that you consent to the deeds of your fathers. For they indeed killed them, and you build their tombs" (Luke 11:48 MKJV).
[TJD] Flee from the wrath to come!
[Victor] Shall we flee from you? By the grace of God, never. We have been delivered from wrath; otherwise we could be candidates for believing your foolishness and adopting the works of devils. Have you red our testimonies? What do you have but religion and vain doctrines of devils? You can't escape the wrath that already covers you. So be it.
[Paul] Timothy, your dinky water pistol won't protect you from the fires to come. You need to repent, get right out of your pretentious intellectual religious garbage and vain theories, and start getting real. But before that happens, Reality must humble you.
You do not know what spirit you are of. Being a religious fool has left you bereft of all sense and decency. Those are the fearsome wages paid by the whore, Mystery, Babylon the Great.
[TJD] Again, mere assertion. You would make yourself a teacher of the law, but your argument is sadly lacking in basic logic.
"My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment." (James 3:1)
"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matt. 18:6)
Your judgement as the leader of a cult in leading others astray will be far worse than for those who are misled by you.
It would be interesting to know how your Sabellianism accounts for the baptism of Christ, when the Son was baptised, the Father spoke from Heaven and declared that Jesus was His beloved Son in whom He was well-pleased, and the Holy Spirit rested on Jesus in the form of a dove? It would also be interesting to know how the Son can be His own Father?
[Victor] All answered above and in our writings, yet nothing understood by the carnal mind, which is all you have, and in which you take great pride:
"Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall" (Proverbs 16:18 MKJV).
[TJD] If you are not a Modalist, then correct me. Is there a brief statement of what you believe concerning the being of God and of Christ? Here is what I believe, not from tradition, but because it is Scriptural, and why re-invent the wheel?
Of God, and of the Holy Trinity
[Paul] That is spiritual nonsense. I quote from the site:
"III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son."
There are no "three Persons." There is only one God, one Lord, and one Name given to men whereby they must be saved. The same One that was born in the flesh to dwell among us is known as the Everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6).
Jesus says in Revelation 3:5:
"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and by no means shall I erase his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels" (Revelation 3:5 EMTV).
If there is a three-fold entity sitting on the throne of God, how come the angels of God are confessed to before this third portion of your trinity? Where is the third leg of your god? Why has Jesus forgotten it? What nonsense! The entire Bible from start to finish refutes the trinity.
How did Cornelius and the Gentiles with him receive salvation, manifest by the gifts of the Holy Spirit Who came to indwell them? Did Peter preach the trinity, or did they turn to God through the preaching of Jesus Christ? You wouldn't know because this has never happened to you.
Like Victor said, all of this is in the writings we sent you. While we have heard your tired sophist's dog and pony show, you have never heard the truth. You are too lazy and proud to expose yourself to it. Perish then in your lies and idolatries.
Also, the Son is not "eternally" begotten, whatever that means. The Scriptures say:
"I will declare the decree: the LORD has said unto Me, You are My Son; this day have I begotten You" (Psalms 2:7 KJV).
"And we proclaim to you the good news of the promise which was made to the fathers, that God has fulfilled this promise for us to their children, when He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, today I have begotten You" (Acts 13:32-33 EMTV).
Paul Cohen & Victor Hafichuk
www.thepathoftruth.com
Paul and Victor,
As most of your replies were ad hominem (abusive) fallacies and begged the question, I will cut to the quick of what was relevant, instead of wasting time on those things which do not constitute an argument in defence of your beliefs.
My Understanding of Your Anti-Trinitarian Beliefs
As I understand from your writings, you believe the following:
1. The Bible is true and the Word of God.
2. There is one God, who is eternal and made all things.
3. God was manifest in the flesh through the Incarnation – Emmanuel, God with us.
4. God consists of only one person, not three as Trinitarians believe.
5. God has been manifest in various forms, or modes, but these are not distinct persons.
6. God the Father was manifest in human form as the Son, or Jesus Christ.
7. The Son in His divinity is not distinct from the Father.
8. All things are formed from and belong to the substance of God, including the devils (contrary to the orthodox belief that God created ex nihilo, out of nothing, and that although He is everywhere present, His creation does not constitute a part of His substance).
If I have misunderstood you, then please correct me.
If you believe points 1 – 3, then we are agreed on these points.
Points 4 – 7 have been labelled variously Sabellianism, Monarchianism, Modalism, Patripassianism and Oneness Theology.
Point 8 is a form of Pantheism in the view of orthodoxy, as it does not distinguish God from His creation, although you do not agree that this is Pantheistic.
I use these terms in their historic sense, whether you agree with my use of them, or not.
Articles Upholding the Biblical Faith Called Trinitarianism and Opposing the Unscriptural Error of Modalism
I will start to publish articles on my own blog stating the case for Trinitarianism and against Modalism. It is questionable whether there is much profit in reasoning with you, given that you constantly defy all rational argument and ignore clear statements, saying, "A = not A".
However, God may be gracious to open your eyes to your errors and their consequences, and I pray and have prayed that He will. (May God have mercy on your souls.) He may also use its imperfection for the good of others, and it will be a profitable exercise for my own soul.
Some Accusations Answered
Although most of your words are mere invective, there are some accusations that you make that I will answer:
a) “You condemn [Servetus] as a heretic, but, just like Calvin, you cannot show he is wrong.”
I have not yet personally proved to you that Servetus is wrong or a heretic, but your accusation that “I cannot” is merely an assertion (begging the question), based upon no evidence. I did, however, point you to standard defences of Trinitarianism.
It is one thing to confess your belief without providing evidence; it is another to make wild assertions without any evidence at all.
b) You assert again, without proof that I am aware of, that Calvin approved of Servetus’ burning.
Calvin notified the Council of Servetus’ presence in Geneva, made the various theological accusations against him and approved of his execution, but did not approve of his burning. Rather, he requested that the Council use beheading, as also did Servetus himself. He was the only one who opposed the burning.
The Church and State, both Protestant and Papist, universally approved of his execution, including the Lutherans.
Servetus was tried and executed by the Genevan Council, not Calvin. Calvin was no Pope of Geneva, but rather the Council was dominated by Libertines at the time, who tried to wrest control of the Church from the elders. The Council did not do what Calvin told them to do, rather they opposed him.
Servetus was executed for social reasons as a disturber of the peace, and not theological, although Calvin’s accusations were theological.
I hope that this will get through to you at last.
There are many other historical inaccuracies in your account of Servetus, but I will not waste time on any more on these things.
c) ”It is interesting that none of you Calvin apologists like to mention Castellion…”
Whether university academics discuss Castellion or not, I do not know, but it is not that Calvinists do not like to mention Castellion as if to avoid some superior arguments that he makes.
It is merely that his opponents and modern ethics focus on Servetus. This is what the great cry is about. You judge motives without proof.
Personally we do not like to mention the ugliness of any opponent of the truth, when we would rather focus on the beauty and majesty of God.
Timothy, you do not have the means to establish what is relevant and what is not, or to understand the things of God. This is quite evident once again in this reply, which overlooks the answers we have already given you and continues on to protest what is established and proven.
A new and false idea you bring up is that God created things out of nothing, which goes against His revealed Word that He created the things that are seen out of things which do not appear (Hebrews 1:3). As with all the things you write, this too betrays where you are coming from, because there is nothing behind your triune gods, which are mere imagination and illusion.
The reason that you stubbornly argue against self-evident, declared Truth is because you are a son of darkness who has nothing of Substance. The children of darkness are dependent on themselves, confident in their carnal intellects in which they trust, just like John Calvin. And, as children of the flesh, you are always found to be opposing the children of the Spirit, as is evident throughout the Scriptures.
Calvin followed in the way of his father Cain, opposing Servetus and Castellion by persecuting them to death. As for his culpability, let me make this very simple, though simplicity has nothing to do with your problem with Truth. If the police catch a man with a bloody sword in his hand, standing over a headless corpse, that man is accounted a murderer no less than the one standing over the ashes of another victim with the matches in his hand. Murder is murder.
That John Calvin showed intent to murder is established beyond a shadow of a doubt. That John Calvin handed a man that believed in Jesus Christ over to the heathen to be murdered is also without doubt. That Calvin justified his actions afterwards is on the record, as we have shown you more than once.
As for some of your new excuses, which are not new (you have further dug into the bag of tricks of liars and knaves that defend murderers), they are also lame.
For example, Servetus disturbed the public, which made him worthy of death? Isn't that what the apostles were repeatedly charged with in the Book of Acts? Yes, and the ones disturbed and stirring up the heathen also had them killed, as you and your fathers do and have done.
It is a matter of record that the official charge against Servetus was preaching blasphemy, because he taught God is One and denied infant baptism, which charges were initiated by Calvin, who behaved just like his fathers:
"And the Jews who did not believe became envious, and took some wicked men from the marketplace, and forming a mob, they threw the city into disorder, and came upon the house of Jason, and sought to bring them [Paul and Silas] to the people" (Acts 17:5 EMTV).
You speak great, empty words, huffing and puffing like your fathers, breathing murder while accusing the innocent, about whom you lie, saying you can prove them guilty, but you do not, just as the mad Jews that killed Christ could not produce their witnesses, only their accusations. You are a damned liar because, when confronted with the Truth, you deny Him to protect and keep your wretched sin-filled carcass for which He shed His blood.
You appeal to Lutherans and papists because you are another religious murderer, just like them. Your cloak of piety is filthy and stained with the blood of saints. Your prayers are an abomination to God, the perverse sentiments of a liar and murderer. He now answers the prayers of those whose blood you spilled, for which you are held accountable. How then do you think to escape His judgment by vain religious exercises and bombast?
Paul Cohen
www.thepathoftruth.com
Timothy, Victor here.
You say: "It is one thing to confess your belief without providing evidence; it is another to make wild assertions without any evidence at all."
The evidence is there, on record, not only from us, and you are blind, unable to judge, a stubborn man who refuses to receive the Truth.
You write of Calvin and Servetus: "The Church and State, both Protestant and Papist, universally approved of his execution, including the Lutherans."
Let me paraphrase those words. Here is your manifest thinking: "The Pope prays to Mary, so Augustine is justified. Luther practises infant baptism, so we are justified. Both Catholics and Protestants do this or that, so it is no big deal if someone else does it." You say, "They murdered, so Calvin is innocent of murder"? Man, how darkened you are!
Murderer, viper, wicked man, justifying your deeds and Calvin's by the wicked deeds of others! And who should care if Calvin suggested the eggs be poached instead of scrambled? He vowed years in advance that if he ever had opportunity to cook the eggs, he would surely cook them. He gave voice and support to cooking them when he had opportunity, then justified himself years later. And you are going to defend him because he fried instead of scrambled them? Bastard! Liar! Hypocrite! Murderer! You, Timothy, are a heretic.
Invectives? So be it. All perfectly true! Child of Satan, your day is finished.
We have sent you much, answering all your questions in many ways. You have arrogantly ignored it all, hardly reading, unable to receive, cemented in pride.
Being you cannot tell truth from fallacy, who set you up as judge to determine anything about us or about any man? But we are here to judge righteous judgment, as commanded by the Lord Jesus Christ, Whom you have never known and Who now says to you in this last day by us:
"I never knew you: begone from Me, you doers of wickedness" (Matthew 7:23 WNT).
Invective? You have no understanding of what we have to say and, truly, it is not about doctrine, but of the Lord; if you knew Him, you would know if our doctrine is our own or of Him. But you do not do His will, therefore you wander in darkness, proud of your wicked ways.
"Jesus answered them and said, My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If anyone desires to do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it is of God, or I speak from Myself" (John 7:16-17 MKJV).
"He who is of God hears God's Words. Therefore you do not hear them because you are not of God" (John 8:47 MKJV).
Who cares about your "isms"? Certainly, God does not. But these are more of your foolish and ignorant surmisings and teachings of men. You have no part in the truth; there is none in you. As Peter said to Simon, so we say to you:
"You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity" (Acts 8:21-23 MKJV).
"Invectives," viper? So you say. You have knowledge, but of the letter, as you have interpreted it in your own carnal, antiChrist mind. Ad hominem, right? Call it what you will; we speak the truth to and about you, and you destroy yourself, stopping your ears.
You write: "If I have misunderstood you, then please correct me."
If only you had a heart for correction, not only for details but also for a change of nature and substance, but you sit on your throne of ice, with fire now here to consume it, and you don't know it. You have no use for being corrected, only presuming to correct you know not what. A damned fool you are, Timothy, a fool because you say there is no God and damned because you take pleasure in your iniquity, not believing.
You write: "However, God may be gracious to open your eyes to your errors and their consequences, and I pray and have prayed that He will. (May God have mercy on your souls.)"
Whatever gives you the idea our eyes have not been opened? Your antiScriptural, heretical concoctions of doctrine you call "orthodox Christian" truth? God delivered us from consequences and has loaded us with benefits, having been wondrously merciful to our souls. If you only knew! Wow! Read our testimonies, proud, blind, and foolish man, and see that you have nothing, nothing but lies and religious trappings of men, and God is not at all pleased with your vile works and words. You deny Him in all your ways and thoughts. Your time is now done, Timothy.
Your prayers are an abomination to Him.
Finally you close with: "Personally we do not like to mention the ugliness of any opponent of the truth, when we would rather focus on the beauty and majesty of God."
We do like to mention the ugliness of any opponent of the truth, even as the prophets mentioned it, even as John the Baptist mentioned it, even as Peter, John, and Paul mentioned it, and even as Jesus Christ Himself mentioned it. Not that it is pleasant, either to us or to God. He is grieved with you, and is not strange to expressing His grief and great dissatisfaction. For your torment, viper, read the proof of our "ad hominem" invectives here, from Holy Scripture, and cringe. Hide in your hole from the light that shines:
Does God Speak Only Gentle Words?
You say you "focus on the beauty and majesty of God"? When have you ever seen or been party to it? Liar. Your fruits by word and doctrine are plain testimony that you are an enemy of the cross of Christ, a proud, pompous intellectual, who deems intellectualism and study to be marks of piety, and doctrine a ticket into the Kingdom of God. Those, our defeated enemy, represent the mark of the beast, who thinks that might is right. Confounded man, it is the other way around, and we have the seal of God, speaking from His throne, bringing you out of your grave to damnation because you do not believe. Here and now is your fiery judgment.
As you laid green faggots at Servetus' feet to destroy him, so we lay the faggots of your words at your feet and light them with the Word of God. Your destruction will be perfect and complete, and not as was your intention with Servetus. Him you sought with wicked hatred to destroy, but we burn you with the Word of God proceeding forth from our mouths, which will do Its perfect work, and, when done, you will have been purged and redeemed, by God's pure grace. You will abhor yourself for a time, until you will indeed see "the beauty and majesty of God," and wonder at Him Who had mercy on you.
When the judgment is complete, you will be at our feet, as prophesied:
"Now you will see what I will do with those people who belong to Satan's group. They claim to be Jews, but they are liars. I will make them come and kneel down at your feet. Then they will know that I love you" (Revelation 3:9 CEV).
We cross swords with you, Satan, and you lose.
An entirely unworthy servant of the Lord Jesus Christ, I am, deserving of every evil thing, undeserving of any good thing, but thrilled and so thankful to Him for His grace and mercy, and for the unspeakable honor of being in His service, not for my sake, but for His,
Victor Hafichuk
www.thepathoftruth.com
Gentlemen,
No doubt Christ and others used strong language with inveterate heretics and deceivers (as Calvin and others did), which is evident upon even a cursory glance of the Gospels, but I am not convinced that you use these statements in the same manner as Christ did, especially in the almost rabid frequency in which you use terms like "viper", etc.
Your use is more reminiscent of the following:
"raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame" (Jude 13)
Consider these statements of Scripture carefully:
"You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matt. 5:21,22)
Undoubtedly, Christ called men fools at times (e.g. Matt. 23:19), nevertheless are you using it in the same way that He did, or as He inveighs against in Matt. 5? I shall leave it to you to consider this for yourselves.
Where is Christ's use of the word "bastard" also?
Love.. does not behave rudely" (1 Cor 13:4,5)
Consider whether you are obedient to this truth:
"And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth..." (1 Tim. 2:24,25)
This has been how I have endeavoured (however imperfectly) to deal with you. Again, my sincere prayer is always that God may grant you repentance, so that you may know the truth.
Where is your argument? It is just not there. It is not a question of intellectualism, but a careful use of the intellect, which I must say candidly is not there.
As you don't seem to understand what "ad hominem" means, here is one definition for you:
ad hominem: attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument"
Christ did not engage in ad hominem. His focus was on careful argument and reason. I just don't see it in your response as yet. Regrettably you waste your energy on invective. Take for example the following:
"The Pope prays to Mary, so Augustine is justified. Luther practises infant baptism, so we are justified. Both Catholics and Protestants do this or that, so it is no big deal if someone else does it." You say, "They murdered, so Calvin is innocent of murder"?"
How could you ever extrapolate my statement into this? Quite remarkable!
I will take more of Paul's advice and cease this wrangling about words and the acts of others:
But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. (1 Tim. 2:23)
This is the last comment that I will make under this post in response to you. I will waste no more time on these things.
The real meat is your denial of the plain truth of Scripture concerning the Godhead. As you have not yet provided feedback on my understanding of your beliefs, I must proceed on the basis that my assumptions are true. I will soon begin to put posts relevant to this on my own blog here.
please email me . . . I have changed the setting on my blog and need to list you so you can access it.
I'll explain on my blog.
Julie
Hi Culverites!
Just for catalogue... somebody can say what denomination is Dr. Culver?
God bless you
Marcelo
sicochances@gmail.com
CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD?
What is the meaning of calling on the name of the Lord? Many assume that believing in Jesus and saying a form of a sinner's prayer constitutes, calling on the name of the Lord. The problem with that theory is none of the conversions under the New Covenant support that assumption. Not one time is anyone ever told to believe and say the sinner's prayer in order to be saved.
The apostle Peter on the Day of Pentecost quoted the prophet Joel, Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (NKJV)
The apostle Peter preached the first gospel sermon under the New Covenant. Peter did not tell the 3000 converts to believe and say the sinner's prayer.
Peter preached the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. He preached Jesus as both Lord and Christ. When they heard this they asked Peter and the rest of the brethren what they should do?(Acts 2:22-37) Peter told them what to do. Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.(NKJV)
How did the 3000 on the Day of Pentecost call on the name of the Lord and become saved?
1. They believed that Jesus was both Lord and Christ.
2. They believed that God raised Jesus from the grave.
3. They repented. Repentance is a change of heart. Repentance means to be converted so that God may forgive your sins. Repentance is to make the intellectual commitment to turn from sin and turn toward God. (Acts 3:19, Acts 2:38)
4. They were immersed in water (baptized) so that their sins could be forgiven.
How did the 3000 on the Day of Pentecost not call on the name of the Lord?
1. They did not say a sinner's prayer.
2. Not one person was asked to pray for forgiveness.
3. Not one single man was told to be baptized as a testimony of his faith.
4. No one was told that water baptism was a just an act of obedience.
5. No one was informed they were saved the very minute they believed.
6. Not one person was told that water baptism was not essential for the forgiveness of sins.
7. Not one person was told to be baptized so they could join a denominational church.
Jesus said he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. (Mark 16"16) Jesus did not say he who believes and says a sinner's prayer shall be saved.
You ARE INVITED TO READ MY BLOG POSTINGS--Steve Finnell
Post a Comment
<< Home